Later, co-host Ellen McGirt continues the dialog about PFAS with Dr. Maria Doa, the Environmental Protection Fund’s senior director of chemical compounds coverage. Doa explains why “well being and security and a inexperienced economic system aren’t mutually unique.”

Take heed to the episode or learn the complete transcript beneath. 

Transcript

Alan Murray: Management Subsequent is powered by the oldsters at Deloitte, who, like me, are tremendous centered on how CEOs can lead within the context of disruption and evolving societal expectations.

Welcome to Management Subsequent, the podcast concerning the altering guidelines of enterprise management. I’m Alan Murray, and I’m right here with my favourite co-host, Ellen McGirt. Ellen. Good to see you.

Ellen McGirt: You’re my favourite co-host too, Alan. Good to see you. It’s good to be right here. And I’m actually all for at present’s interview. It’s with Mark Newman, the CEO of the chemical firm Chemours. I couldn’t make it to this one, which was actually a bummer, as a result of I had a bunch of questions for Mark. You’ll hear me on the B-side of this, nonetheless, however I’m assured that you just’ve coated quite a lot of floor. 

Murray: Yeah, it’s a captivating firm, Ellen. Chemours spun out from DuPont in 2015. It produces quite a lot of completely different chemical compounds. It’s most likely greatest identified for producing Teflon, that chemical coating that’s largely related to nonstick surfaces on pots and pans. However it’s additionally used to waterproof clothes, to make automotive paint good and glossy, fortify photo voltaic panels. It has prior to now typically has been regarded as an environmental downside, however the attention-grabbing factor about Chemours, that we’ll discover out on this episode, is that they’ve actually shifted to focusing extra on environmental and local weather options.

McGirt: Sure, I’m all for studying extra about that. Teflon, in fact, can also be the nice metaphor of alternative for our legislators who by no means get caught, by no means get into hassle. So it’s actually a great tool. I’m actually interested in how Chemours goes about producing these chemical compounds. As a few of our viewers might know, Teflon is taken into account a polyfluoroalkyl substance, and I simply struggled to learn to pronounce that phrase. Polyfluoroalkyl substances are higher referred to as PFAS—spelled P F A S—they usually’re a category of chemical compounds thought-about eternally chemical compounds, that means they don’t break down within the surroundings. And naturally, the ingestion of PFAS both instantly or via contaminated water has been linked to some fairly severe stuff like cancers or different well being issues. Now I do know that Chemours is constant to put money into PFAS, and I additionally know that they suppose they will accomplish that responsibly. Did you get an opportunity to speak to him about that?

Murray: Yeah, I did, Ellen, and I feel you’ll be impressed with what he needed to say. Mark is definitely solely the second CEO of Chemours. He took over in 2021. And since then, he has personally been very vocal concerning the firm’s dedication to each righting its previous environmental wrongs and enjoying a productive function in coping with local weather change. We spent quite a lot of time speaking about that, about the way it will transition to turning into a clear firm with out avoiding public costs of greenwashing. That is the kind of purposeful however tough management via transition that made Mark such an attention-grabbing Management Subsequent visitor.

McGirt: I agree, and it’s vital to dive proper into these actually powerful topics. So I’m getting into with an open thoughts despite the fact that I’m at all times on the proverbial ledge. However I additionally need to find out about PFAS usually—their makes use of, their influence, and the way they are often deployed safely. So later on this episode, I’m going to speak with Dr. Maria Doa, the senior director of chemical compounds coverage on the Environmental Protection Fund, and attempt to get my questions answered.

Murray: I’m wanting ahead to listening to from Dr. Doa, Ellen, and I’m wanting ahead to you listening to from Mark. So with none additional ado, right here is the dialog with Mark Newman of Chemours.

Mark, thanks a lot for being right here and having this dialog.

Mark Newman: Alan, nice to be right here at present. Love speaking to you.

Murray: I’ve been actually wanting ahead to this, since you run a chemical firm, a chemical firm that makes merchandise which have prior to now been accused of despoiling the surroundings, however you’re clearly dedicated to creating it an organization that helps remedy our environmental issues. And I need to spend a while speaking about what that transition appears to be like like and the way you talk it to individuals and keep away from costs of greenwashing. All of these issues. However earlier than I do any of that, inform us what Chemours is and the place it got here from.

Newman: Okay, nicely, Chemours is a chemistry firm. Chemours is 6,600 staff robust. We’re about $7 billion in income. About 4,400 of our staff are right here within the U.S., the remaining world, and we’ve got three business main companies. Our largest is Titanium Applied sciences. Assume titanium dioxide that goes into coatings and laminates and plastics. Our Thermal and Specialised Options are actually centered on sustainable power or thermal administration. After which our Superior Efficiency Supplies or fluoropolymers, as they’re typically referred to as, is admittedly centered on quite a lot of very high-value end-use purposes. 

I need to begin although, by speaking about our imaginative and prescient, as a result of I feel that is what’s thrilling and energizing our staff. Our imaginative and prescient is that collectively, we create a greater world via the ability of our chemistry. And so our elementary perception is we will make the world higher on account of Chemours merchandise, our individuals, and the way we run our operations. And that inherently, sustainability is a key side to our company technique. So in our TiO2 enterprise, our objective is to be probably the most sustainable Tio2 enterprise on this planet. And we only in the near past launched a product which, for plastic producers, will scale back their power price or power utilization by 6%. That is form of a brand new grade that we simply launched. In our thermal administration enterprise, we’re driving a lot decrease world warming potential in our refrigerants. We’re driving quite a lot of work-around power effectivity, whether or not that’s in warmth pumps to exchange fossil fuels, or warmth pumps in electrical automobiles to enhance battery vary. After which lastly, I imply, in our superior efficiency supplies enterprise, our merchandise are getting used at present in a big selection of merchandise, together with your cell phone. However we’re going to allow larger speeds in knowledge, which is nice for commerce and nationwide safety. We’re enabling EVs. I used to be simply speaking to you about a number of the advances in in EV battery know-how, which our chemistry is supporting. After which lastly, the entire power transition or power diversification with hydrogen, our Nafion membrane is on the heart of an electrolyzer that makes hydrogen from renewable electrical energy, but additionally in a gas cell that converts that hydrogen again to electrical energy for mobility or different industrial makes use of.

Murray: And I need to go into all of these, I significantly need to go into Nafion and the promise of hydrogen as a solution to our local weather and world warming issues. However enable me simply to return for a minute, as a result of Chemours was born out of DuPont. 

Newman: Right.

Murray: Spun out in?

Newman: 2015. So we’re seven years outdated. 

Murray: Previous to that point, earlier than you bought there, merchandise like Freon had been accused of contributing to the degradation of the ozone surroundings, Teflon was eternally chemical compounds, this stuff which are going be round eternally. There have been quite a lot of complaints about their impact on the surroundings. And a few individuals nonetheless say that every one all the things you’re speaking about is simply greenwashing. You’re simply attempting to make up for the sins of the previous. And we’ll go into the element of what you’re doing. However simply broadly talking, how do you reply to that? 

Newman: Yeah, clearly there are legacy points, a few of which, as you stated, predates the formation of the corporate. And we’re addressing these legacy points, you already know, within the communities through which we function. However we’re very centered on this isn’t about greenwashing. In truth, it’s about sustainability in each the merchandise that we make and the way we make them. So, for instance, we’ve got dedicated that almost all of our merchandise by income, will contribute to UN sustainability growth targets. We’re, as of final yr, about very near 50%. We’ll be past that this yr, with the expansion that we see in Nafion membranes and low world warming refrigerants. And so sure, you already know, there’s a historical past of those merchandise, you already know, not being as sustainable as they’re at present. That’s historical past. And, in reality, you already know, to your touch upon Freon, that was, you already know, that was phased out below the Montreal Protocol, you already know, which was within the Nineteen Nineties. In order that’s not current historical past. However sure, it’s a part of the legacy of, these are merchandise that at the moment are way more sustainable.

Murray: Does it frustrate you that you just nonetheless should reside with that legacy?

Newman: It does, to be sincere. One of many irritating issues, although, that you just talked about, is that the entire dialogue on fluorine chemistry, there’s two massive parts which are lacking, and also you touched on one already. The primary is, quite a lot of the problems we’re discussing at present should do how with how the merchandise had been made or used a long time in the past. Let’s put it within the context of, all of us need to get higher, and there have been issues prior to now that had been lower than the place we’re at present. That’s one. The second is very often, particularly with fluoropolymers, individuals suppose this is a matter about Teflon frying pans, as a result of that’s what they keep in mind, that is what they affiliate the model with. However with out with out fluoropolymers, you received’t have a U.S. semicon business. We make a fluoropolymer referred to as PFA, the acronym, the place we’re the one U.S. producer of this product. And we’re certainly one of two or three on this planet that make a excessive purity PFA, which is required for the newest semicon fabs. As I discussed, our fluoropolymers are in anode and cathodes in EV batteries. Your cell phone doesn’t work with out fluoropolymers. Excessive-speed knowledge doesn’t occur with out fluoropolymers. In truth, in fluorochemicals, we’re engaged on immersion cooling, the place we will immerse the complete server in a cooling fluid to scale back the power load of knowledge facilities. So, so hear, I feel once we consider the following economic system, you already know, quite a lot of discuss within the final week about A.I. A.I. is about high-speed knowledge. That’s fluoropolymers. A variety of speak about nationwide safety. That’s high-speed knowledge. I imply, so that you simply take into consideration how trivialized we’ve made the dialogue about pots and pans. It’s not about pots and pans, it’s concerning the future economic system.

Murray: So, let me ask you, you’ve already given plenty of examples of merchandise that Chemours is making that you just consider will assist us remedy our local weather downside or environmental downside. We talked about EVs, the vital function you will have in EVS. We talked about carbon-friendly refrigerants. We talked about Nafion, the membrane that helps make hydrogen gas. And there’s so many I don’t know, it’s so thrilling. There are too many to go after. Inform me the one which excites you most? Yeah, you need to choose amongst your kids.

Newman: Nicely, let me simply say the place I’ve spent probably the most time just lately, within the final yr. And when you have a look at the headlines over Chemours, it’s on hydrogen. And why is that? As a result of there are quite a lot of scientists who consider there’s no path to internet zero with out hydrogen. So we as an organization have dedicated to a 60% greenhouse gasoline discount, absolute discount by 2030. However we all know the trail to internet zero goes to be much more tough, from the 60% to internet zero. Hydrogen, as an industrial power supply presents quite a lot of potential. And you already know, I feel there was a examine by McKinsey that via 2050, 80 gigatons of CO2 will likely be eradicated via hydrogen. 

Murray: If we succeed. 

Newman: If we succeed. By the way in which, we’re a giant a part of the provision chain that should develop. And so that you’ll know we’re investing to develop our Nafion membrane capability considerably.

Murray: Yeah, so discuss concerning the Nafion membrane. Then what’s it that your product does to make hydrogen gas nearer to a actuality? As a result of the reality is, it isn’t a commercially viable gas for the time being, proper?

Newman: In the intervening time, though I’d say the Inflation Discount Act stimulus will, I feel, result in quite a lot of growth. That the subsidy or the tax incentives within the invoice will actually you already know, carry quite a lot of hydrogen capability and convey scale to the business that can make it extra price aggressive. The Nafion membrane, to begin with, these are membranes which are concerning the width of a human hair. They sit between two electrodes normally run at, you already know, 880 volts. So these are high-voltage electrodes changing water to hydrogen and oxygen. Proper. And so the advantage of our membrane is—and once more, as a result of it’s a fluoropolymer—it might face up to warmth, it’s non-conductive, however it permits protons to circulation throughout the membrane as you cut up the water molecule into hydrogen and oxygen. So we’re working primarily on two issues. How can we scale back the ohmic loss within the electrolyte, so throughout our membrane, one, and the way can we considerably enhance sturdiness? The opposite factor we’re engaged on, clearly, for the electrolyzer producers is the price of manufacturing.

Murray: If we efficiently make this transition, and if hydrogen is a crucial a part of the answer, don’t these membranes grow to be like semiconductors? They grow to be core to the brand new economic system. 

Newman: We prefer to say we’re on the coronary heart of the hydrogen economic system.

Murray: Yeah. So clarify, clarify to me why hydrogen is so vital to the local weather resolution, like the place is that this? When you crack the economics, you make it cheap sufficient to be commercially viable. What issues is it going to unravel for us? The place’s it going for use first?

Newman: I consider there are vital purposes in business, proper, the place you will have giant consumption of power. And actually… 

Murray: Pure gasoline first.

Newman: Precisely. In truth, we had been named as a participant within the ARCHES2 hydrogen hub utility in West Virginia. And we’re already how we rework our steam technology at our crops in West Virginia to include as much as 20% of hydrogen within the gas supply. So you are taking a pure gasoline boiler that’s used to make steam for course of steam within the chemical industries, a giant power use. We consider we will convert these boilers to take as current design with a slight modification, 20% of the gas may be pure hydrogen, which has has no carbon signature to it. So I feel it will help the power transition.

[Music starts]

Murray: I’m right here with Joe Ucuzoglu, the CEO of Deloitte and the sponsor of this podcast for all of its seasons. Thanks for that, Joe. 

Joe Ucuzoglu: Thanks, Alan. Pleasure to be right here. 

Murray: Joe, everyone knows that what will get measured will get managed. Of us like your colleagues at Deloitte have spent a century build up metrics to maintain observe of shareholder return. However how can we measure stakeholder return?

Ucuzoglu: That is nonetheless all about measuring attributes that do in reality drive shareholder worth. As a result of over the long run, if you’re driving indicators that symbolize worth creation to your stakeholders, that can translate into premium returns to your shareholders. So what that is actually about is lengthening our horizons. It’s a mixture of quantitative and qualitative metrics. There’s an unlimited quantity of labor to be finished, however you’re seeing an actual sense of urgency round this. 

Murray: I feel that’s a extremely vital level. That in the long run, over years, a long time, the pursuits of shareholders and the pursuits of the stakeholders converge. However within the quick time period, they will typically go in several instructions. 

Ucuzoglu: They definitely can. However what you see is main traders encouraging the businesses they put money into to make sure that they’re constructing and main sustainable enterprises with the target of maximizing shareholder worth over a very long time. 

Murray: Joe, thanks for being with us. 

Ucuzoglu: Alan, it’s an actual pleasure.

[Music ends]

Murray: Let’s go to the battery problem. Everyone knows that’s an enormous problem. I imply, Normal Motors says it’s solely going to make EVs by 2035. California has stated they’re solely going to let EVs on the street by 2035. Yeah, that’s quite a lot of batteries. What downside is Chemours fixing for us there?

Newman: To begin with, batteries are going to larger voltage and better cost density. One of many virtues of fluoropolymers is their dielectric properties. And so the identical properties that make it an important membrane make it an important electrical insulator. So when you’ve got cables to allow excessive pace charging, you’re going to want a fluoropolymer to take care of the warmth and {the electrical} load in these circuits. The efficiency of the electrical automotive is is all about how nicely the motor works and the way nicely {the electrical} infrastructure works. In truth, quite a lot of the work taking place now in EVs is how do you make {the electrical} infrastructure extra environment friendly so that you just want much less lithium—you are able to do with a smaller battery dimension? After which as I used to be mentioning to you earlier, we’re very concerned in form of the following technology of battery know-how, which is a way more sustainable, decrease price, decrease power utilization manufacture of the battery itself, by way of our fluoropolymer being components within the battery producer. So we’re very concerned within the ecosystem of an electrical car from begin to end.

Murray: You’ve already given us two very compelling circumstances that present what you’re doing is actual. It’s arduous to accuse investments and actions of that dimension as being greenwashing. However however was there a degree? When did you personally or how did Chemours and DuPont earlier than it make the flip? When did you personally say, Hey, we’ve received to cease enjoying protection, which they spent quite a lot of money and time and attorneys and so forth, enjoying protection, we’ve received to cease enjoying protection and begin enjoying offense on environmental issues. How did that transition occur?

Newman: Our firm was shaped, as I stated earlier, in 2015. In 2018 we realized that, look, we’ve got quite a lot of legacy that comes by way of how we had been shaped. However the place can we need to go going ahead? And so in 2018 we got here out with what we name our company duty commitments. In that dedication was a dedication across the merchandise we had been making, by way of UN SDG targets [sustainable development goals], in addition to this dedication to a larger than 99% discount in fluorogenic compounds, and the 60% greenhouse gasoline discount. So in 2018, it felt fairly novel versus quite a lot of business friends, however we felt like that is what we have to do. By the way in which, once you’re witnessing the influence of legacy choices that weren’t sustainable, you will have a deeper stage of conviction of what you need to be going ahead. 

Murray: And what you don’t need to be. 

Newman: Precisely, yeah. Once I grew to become CEO in 2021, I stated, you already know, the truth that we name them company duty commitments, it seems like they’re not integral to our technique. We get pleasure from taking that basis now and combine it into this imaginative and prescient that we need to create a greater world via the ability of our chemistry.

Murray: And the way has that call modified your organization?

Newman: I really feel it’s, I really feel it’s actually struck a chord with our staff and with our prospects. I genuinely really feel that that is who we’re and who we need to be. And it’s, it’s actually pushed quite a lot of enthusiasm and drive within the firm, even though we’re nonetheless engaged on, as you stated, you already know, legacy points associated to how we had been shaped. And we’re additionally coping with a problem that there are quite a lot of narratives round fluorine chemistry, which are incomplete. 

Murray: However on the legacy points, it doesn’t change the way in which when someone says, Oh, however right here’s one thing you’ve been doing for years and years that isn’t constant along with your new imaginative and prescient. What do you do about that?

Newman: We’re engaged on previous points and addressing them neighborhood by neighborhood. And so we proceed to reside as much as the commitments we’ve made round remediation because it pertains to legacy points. So we carry individuals again to say, we agreed to do that and we’re doing it. However look, we offer nice jobs on this neighborhood and we offer an answer for lots of future issues that we wish right here in America.

Murray: So, let’s discuss a bit bit about your private story and the way that formed your management fashion. You grew up in Jamaica? 

Newman: Sure, I grew up on a farm in Jamaica. 

Murray: So what I imply, inform us how you bought from rising up on a farm in Jamaica, to operating this big world chemical firm? 

Newman: Nicely, it’s an extended story, however I’ll hold it quick. Pay attention, I grew up on a farm. I feel rising up on a farm retains you grounded, no pun supposed. And I had the privilege, due to my mom being Canadian, to be educated in Canada, and ended up working for Normal Motors. They introduced me to the U.S. And you already know, my profession with GM accelerated and ultimately, I grew to become a public firm CFO, and was requested to hitch the Chemours group, after they had been being spun out of DuPont in 2015, because the CFO. You already know, I’ve at all times had this need to steer, and I really like main. And and so, you already know, when Mark Vergnano determined to retire, you already know, I definitely was very within the prospect of main Chemours. I felt like I used to be one of many founding fathers of a brand new firm, and actually had quite a lot of ardour round what we may do with Chemours.

Murray: Massive query: You’re a lot nearer to the science than I’m, or definitely than most individuals are. You perceive the place the know-how is and the place the know-how isn’t. Are we on a path, in your view, to get to internet zero by 2050? Is {that a} cheap objective, given what you already know concerning the know-how?

Newman: So, I’d say honestly, based mostly on what we all know at present, the trail to internet zero past significant reductions in greenhouse gasoline remains to be a little bit of a query mark. I feel everybody realizes it’s the proper aspiration to have, that we have to have this sort of aspiration.

Murray: I’m unsure it’s everybody. However we’re getting there.

Newman: I’d say, sure, I’d say most, perhaps I’d say most CEOs, yeah, as a bunch, notice that the longer term by way of the local weather, and our environmental signature must be higher than it’s at present. And we have to discover a path to get there as rapidly and as sustainably as doable. So I consider within the energy of chemistry, and I consider we’ll, you already know, our historical past is stuffed with human endeavor that, you already know, to unravel issues that then appeared unsolvable, however in hindsight, have been solved. Given the human situation, why can we consider that this by some means is an unsolvable downside?

Murray: So that you’ve been CEO for a yr and a half. Over that interval, I’d say, over the past three years, we’ve seen an enormous improve within the variety of CEOs who’ve dedicated to internet zero 2050. And we’ve additionally seen CEOs pondering in a different way about their jobs and their obligations [inaudible]. It’s form of the parallel to what you had been saying about taking company social duty, which form of feels like one thing you retain in a aspect workplace and go to each infrequently to creating it core to their methods. Do you see that taking place? And why do you suppose it’s taking place? And can it proceed to occur? And the final piece is, how do you take care of the political pushback, significantly right here within the U.S., to that growth?

Newman: Yeah. So I’d say the very first thing is, that is about making a sustainable future, a sustainable future for the corporate, its staff and society at giant. So I feel when you have a look at it via that lens, that’s that’s a really useful to say, is what we’re doing going to make the longer term higher than it’s at present? And secondly, is it true to the values we espouse as an organization? So very often we are saying we take a look at, you already know, what we’re doing within the ESG area to say, nicely, how does that align with the values that we speak about day-after-day, by way of the tradition of the corporate? As a result of in the event that they’re not capable of really feel very dissonant to staff. And I’d say to the final a part of your query, we attempt, or a minimum of I attempt in my function as CEO, to not make this a platform for a quote-unquote social agenda. As a result of there are lots of people utilizing completely different elements of the social agenda for various causes. So, you already know, whether or not it has to do with transgender rights or ladies’s reproductive rights, I feel there’s a approach of constructing the corporate open and obtainable and secure for everybody, with out essentially utilizing it to advertise a social trigger. And I feel, as a CEO, I really feel such as you’re very often placed on the spot to advertise a social trigger. And fairly frankly, I really feel the, I consider, the core duty of a CEO is to say, am I doing the proper factor for this firm and for its stakeholders? And is is the way in which I’m approaching this situation in keeping with that initiative or that objective? In addition to the objective of being true to what you promote your self to be?

Murray: Yeah, I feel that’s very nicely put. Mark Newman, thanks a lot for spending time speaking to me. 

Newman: Thanks, Alan. Nice to be right here.

[Music]

McGirt: Dr. Doa, thanks a lot for being with us at present. That is such an advanced chemical query. So that you’re the proper particular person to assist us kind it out. Can we begin by simply understanding a bit bit about what you’re doing at EDF?

Maria Doa: I’m engaged on extra accountable use of chemical compounds and lowering exposures and dangers to chemical compounds, exposures to all of us. And importantly, exposures to these weak, those that reside close to amenities which have larger publicity to chemical compounds, and people which are extra inclined to chemical compounds comparable to pregnant ladies, kids, the aged.

McGirt: Let’s break it down for our listeners, as a result of it will get, as I discussed, fairly difficult fairly rapidly. What’s a working definition of PFAS that the typical particular person may perceive and the place do we discover them? What merchandise do we discover them in?

Doa: Nicely, PFAS are a bunch of associated widely-used, very long-lasting artificial chemical compounds. Which means they’re artifical. They’re appropriately referred to as eternally chemical compounds, as a result of they final for therefore lengthy within the surroundings and are very tough to destroy. Additionally, many PFAS can accumulate and final a very long time in people. Some, for years. They usually have many traits that make them helpful in merchandise, they usually’re utilized in many issues from nonstick cookware, waterproofing for clothes, stain resistance for furnishings. They’re additionally utilized in firefighting foam.

McGirt: So that they’re helpful, they’re fashionable, they’re a aggressive benefit in enterprise. So I can see why they’re in every single place now. However what influence have they got on individuals and the surroundings?

Doa: Due to their widespread use, and due to their persistence within the surroundings, they’re discovered within the blood of individuals and animals all around the world and all through the surroundings. For instance, the Facilities for Illness Management and Prevention has discovered that PFAS are within the blood of 97% of People, which could be very uncommon for chemical compounds to be that top.

McGirt: So what does it imply that they’re in our our bodies? That they’re round us? What are the impacts?

Doa: Many PFAS have been recognized to trigger dangerous results, significantly when you’re uncovered to them over an extended time frame or uncovered throughout sure crucial life phases, like throughout being pregnant and in creating infants. So as well as, they could improve the chance of some cancers comparable to kidney and testicular most cancers, they usually can injury the liver.

McGirt: I feel what Chemours’ massive argument is, is that every one the issues with these chemical compounds are prior to now. Can PFAS in your understanding ever be manufactured safely and responsibly?

Doa: Nicely, to begin with, it’s not all prior to now. And plenty of of those PFAS are nonetheless getting used. Chemours, for instance, switched from a PFAS referred to as PFOA, which is vastly problematic, and we’re nonetheless coping with that, into one other PFAS referred to as GenX, which they marketed as a substitute for PFOA. I feel the problem of whether or not they are often manufactured responsibly, there’s quite a lot of historical past that reveals it’s very tough to try this given the widespread contamination and a few of it associated to the manufacturing of those PFAS or the usage of these PFAS, comparable to within the manufacture of plastics. So I feel the problem is what’s wanted is innovation. And modern firms take a more energizing, broader have a look at what chemical compounds can meet the wants of their prospects, relatively than shifting from one PFAS to a different, and those who transfer from the sooner PFAS to different substitutes, merely made adjustments across the edges, and simply should introduce different problematic chemical compounds, as I simply talked about with PFOA and GenX.

McGirt: We’re out of the blue listening to about PFAS in every single place. Endlessly chemical compounds is a extremely highly effective strategy to body what they’re within the creativeness of the general public, too. Why do you suppose we’re out of the blue listening to a lot about this? And what ought to the general public learn about how to consider regulating their use?

Doa: Nicely, I feel we hear a lot about them as a result of we’re discovering them in every single place, you already know, together with individuals. And so that you may be uncovered to not only one or two however a number of. And naturally, as you stated, I imply they’re they only final so lengthy within the surroundings. Even within the surroundings, it’s a bit little bit of a whack-a-mole, they transfer from like, soil to groundwater, it’s simply arduous to wash them up. In order that’s why I feel we’re listening to a lot about them. And likewise as a result of we as a society are spending some huge cash to wash them up extra so than for different chemical compounds. And these prices are being socialized throughout, you already know, society. 

McGirt: And it’s additionally I’m struck with the poignancy of this, you already know—I’ll offer you an instance simply from Chemours. They manufacture chemical compounds which are going for use in EV batteries. You already know, I’ve talked about the fluoropolymer membranes. And it simply form of strikes me is that we wish an electrical car future. You already know, we need to have a future that contributes to getting off carbon painlessly and effectively and in time to save lots of the planet. In case you’re utilizing problematic chemical compounds to do it, it simply seems like such a poignant commerce off. How can we take into consideration that?

Doa: Nicely, I don’t suppose that well being and security and shifting to a greener economic system are mutually unique. You possibly can definitely do, you are able to do that. And to the extent that one thing is, you already know, a crucial use the place it’s wanted, like for EV batteries, and there are not any good substitutes, and after I imply, good substitutes, I imply, there’s not one thing that may do the identical job, say for an inexpensive, an inexpensive price, not that it’s simply crucial in my backside line. However you already know, to that extent, you are able to do it and do it in such a approach that you’ve got limitations in place, that you just’re not exposing people to this chemical that can, you already know, that can hurt them and that should be cleaned up later. So once more, simply to reiterate, well being and security and a inexperienced economic system aren’t mutually unique.

McGirt: I at all times really feel like that is fodder for science fiction, you already know, somebody falls right into a sewer, they’re surrounded by eternally chemical compounds, they usually grow to be, you already know, the monster from the sewer form of factor. So, thanks a lot, Dr. Doa. Is there something that you can inform us that may assist us actually, actually body the potential situation of getting these chemical compounds within the surroundings and in our our bodies?

Doa:  It’s an enormous situation, and I feel that people are modern sufficient and might transfer to substitutes. It’s like, we must always cease specializing in landlines and know that the know-how has moved to smartphones, and I feel a few of these PFAS are just like the outdated landlines, you already know—they had been most likely supported for too lengthy.

McGirt: Hello, everybody. It’s Ellen once more, after my interview with Dr. Doa. Like good journalists, we requested Chemours to touch upon her remarks. They requested to make clear one factor specifically in reference to characterizing GenX as a substitute to PFOA. Chemours responded “GenX isn’t a chemical compound, however a patented know-how utilized by Chemours to help within the manufacturing course of for 4 kinds of fluoropolymers.”

Murray: Management Subsequent is edited by Alexis Haut. It’s written by me, Alan Murray, together with my superb colleagues Ellen McGirt, Alexis Haut, and Megan Arnold. Our theme is by Jason Snell. Our govt producer is Megan Arnold. Management Subsequent is a manufacturing of Fortune Media. Management Subsequent episodes are produced by Fortune‘s editorial group.

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